As non-american I agree you guys should definitely vote Harris, despite Dems being terrible Trump would absolutely be worse on each topic Dems are bad. That being said, rethoric of this post is straight up facist. Using threats of personal consequences for “wrongly” exercising ones right to vote is wild.
deleted by creator
Convincing people to vote isnt a goal. Liberals, specifically US liberals have this compulsion to fingerwag at anyone who doesnt listen to their self important wankery. Irregardless of the repeated lies, policy failures, lies, can kicking, goal post moving, lies, etc.
Every election is “This is the most important election of our lives” and “Now is not the time” and “When we win we can do [insert obvious thing that desperately needs to happen]”
People buy the lies, vote for their corporate appointed vanguard candidate. Then realize they were lied to. That “The Right Time” was never going to happen. They get jaded or just check completely out of politics after the Xth election of being lied to. And its always on those people to “Save Democracy” every election. The lies and shit policies are entirely blameless. Its always the fault of those who question.
I for instance according to liberals am an EVIL Trump voter. Even though I haven’t voted since 2016 and wont vote until dems make universal healthcare happen. That’s my singular demand currently. But its a hard line. A team of wild horses couldn’t drag me to the polls until that happens. Now I will never vote for republicans. They’re evil. Period. They’re a known quantity. They will only ever do the worst possible thing. List of options, they will 100% choose the one that harms the greatest number of people, their own included. I demand the Democrats be better, which makes me a heinous villain of the highest order.
deleted by creator
Good on you. That tiniest expression of your own individual agency makes all the difference in the world. Ultimately we on an individual level are powerless in this system. Utterly so. That you can claw back even that much choice is a wonderful thing.
people are free with their damn votes
Until they don’t have the right to vote anymore because they threw it away in the final election
“Or else” isn’t bullshit when it comes from the perspective of anyone who actually has something to lose if Trump wins.
Everyone who is on the fence or doesn’t feel like they need to vote are just speaking from positions of privilege because they don’t personally have as much on the line. I just find it hard to sympathize with that perspective.
“Or else” isnt bullshit
then pressure Kamala to change that one far far right wing policy the progressives cant live with and lets win this thing.
But the same thing can be said for the people ignoring the faults of Kamala…
Especially when they’re just begging for an end of genocide, or fracking destroying their communities, or any other of multitude issues where Kamala and Trump have the same policies even though the majority of the Dem voting base disagrees with them.
It seems odd to act like the “high road” is the one where genocide is ok, when we could just have someone who was anti-genocide…
There’s fall less people willing to hold their noses to vote for genocide and fracking than the other way around. And very few people who are only voting for Kamala because her border, genocide, and fracking policies are the same as Trump’s.
The people that want that are still voting trump, if they told you that it would change your mind…
I hate to break it to you, but they lie about this shit all the time so even if they lose they win.
I’m sorry, how does Trump improve any of the issues you describe?
He doesn’t, neither does Kamala…
So why get mad at someone who’s line isnt the same place as yours?
You can tell at them to throw their morals out the window, or unite with them and demand just a little more than the bare minimum you would accept
Why is no one allowed to ask for anything more than your bare minimum? And why would you risk trump to not help get more?
I don’t logically understand your position, I understand what it is, just not why it’s your position.
Can you elaborate on how this:
just speaking from positions of privilege because they don’t personally have as much on the line. I just find it hard to sympathize with that perspective.
Isn’t applicable to you wanting people to ignore genocide? In some cases where it’s literally their close family over there as the victims?
He doesn’t, neither does Kamala…
Then why even have this argument?
How about we swing this double edged sword the other way? Why try to alienate women who lost their rights with the overturning of Roe v. Wade because of Trump’s supreme court appointments? Or what about every LGBTQ+ person in the US who is trapped at the edge of their seats because members of the supreme court have stated they’d like to revisit Obergefell v. Hodges, too?
How about all of the kids who are shot to death at school because of unchecked gun proliferation that Trump’s party has blocked attempts to regulate? Or people who are drowning to death in medical and student debt that Trump blocked attempts to solve, while he just has a “concept of a plan” that no one is able to describe?
Or maybe we can look at his previous presidency, when his hateful rhetoric caused sharp rises in hate speech and crimes committed against people of color and the socially vulnerable? The rise in white supremacist/domestic terrorist groups? The election denialism that resulted in January 6? The complete and utter failure to properly manage the Covid-19 pandemic that led to the preventable deaths of millions?
The threat of fascism literally looming over our heads and being told none of that matters because Kamala is no different from Trump in my specific hand-picked list of issues, that’s what I take issue with.
If someone is not willing to do the bare minimum to keep him out of power because they don’t see a reason to vote for Kamala, I have a long list of less-kind words I’d love to say if I didn’t believe in trying to maintain civility online.
Then why even have this argument?
Because if instead of spending time and effort trying to convince voters to lower their morals…
We’d be better off uniting to hold Kamala to a higher standard, because then we’d stop trump, and get more of what we want.
I’m not sure what’s confusing about this.
Goodness you are a speed reader, replying within 2 minutes and acknowledging the very first sentence I wrote.
I am literally holding Kamala to a higher standard. Everything I wrote is the standard that anyone with half a braincell and respect for their fellow man should understand. Anyone who does not is not worth being pandered to.
No one is ignoring her faults. She is just less flawed then the alternative. People need to learn how to vote. It is literally the only zero sum game that matters.
Everyone who is on the fence or doesn’t feel like they need to vote are just speaking from positions of privilege because they don’t personally have as much on the line. I just find it hard to sympathize with that perspective.
I agree with your first sentence, but honestly your second sentence doesn’t matter. No one has the right or ethical high ground to command or threaten another person to vote the way they want, regardless of whether they sympathize with that person’s position.
Actual Trump voters, many of whom are voting against their own best interests as well as yours and mine, have the right to make their uninformed/hateful/self-harming/selfish (pick one or more as applicable) vote, and so do folks whose vote we disagree with for other reasons.
We all think our reasons for voting the way we are (including abstaining) are valid, and at the level of the voting booth it seems to me that we have to respect everyone else’s as valid even when we don’t feel they are.
If we do not do so, I don’t see how that doesn’t lead to either:
a) commanding another to vote as you desire
or
b) thought policing people
I find either of those to be unacceptable for any purpose.
My perspective is that no one has the right to infringe on the rights of others, and to me any act that facilitates Trump entering the white house creates a greater infringement on human rights than any vote that facilitates Harris.
These are things that shouldn’t even need to be decided by an election, they should just be codified and not up for vote at all, but here we are.
Persuade all you want.
Threatening/intimidating/commanding people to vote in a particular way is not OK though. It’s not something where the end justifies the means, and it’s a pandora’s box that should not be opened. OP would be rightly called a threat if a conservative version of it was posted. It’s akin to this, minus the power dynamic.
And when I am being threatened myself by their stance?
Hey if you are convinced by the two-wrongs-make-a-right approach, that’s your business not mine.
Stovetop, no one comes here to hear your annoying yappy petulance, and you havent changed a single persons mind, just annoyed everyone who reads this thread. You are the reason the block user button exists.
Then block me instead of whining about it.
deleted by creator
I’m just sorry to say, but the situation in Palestine is not up for vote right now. This election will not change that outcome, short of keeping the “finish the job” candidate out of office while maybe the more reasonable of the two can eventually decide to do the right thing.
If none of the “other stuff” that is actually up for vote matters to people, though, then those people aren’t allies and apparently don’t care if they end up living under a christofascist regime that won’t need elections anymore.
deleted by creator
NEVER AGAIN 🤡
I guess some people’s issues are more important than [others]
On the farm all animals are equal! But Palestinian get taken to the shed to make this equality work ;)
Which candidate will make life for Palestinians better?
They are getting genocide either way …
Weird way to call that “better”
Trump’s track record and intentions for his next term are crystal clear. They are clearly and demonstrably worse than harris’plans or Biden/harris’ previous term.
That info is widely available. To ignore it now, and claim to need “convincing” is madness at best, or bad faith at worst.
I already wasn’t going to vote for Trump, so threatening me with him doesn’t make me want to vote for Democrats, it makes me want both parties to lose.
No offense but taking it as “threatening” and not understanding that I’ve of them WILL win is comically short sighted.
Folks aren’t trying to find someone a date, they’re explaining the consequences of a FPTP election with limited possible outcomes.
Needing to be handled with kid gloves is privileged
No offense, but saying “support my candidate or else the bad man will win” and not understanding that people will see this as a threat is comically bad public relations.
Folks aren’t looking for someone to vote against, they’re looking for someone to vote for.
Needing to be handled with kid gloves so you don’t have to face the weakness of your own rhetoric is privileged.
If you don’t get being in a constrained system there’s nothing else to discuss. Decide for yourself on who of the two candidates you want, and vote to empower either. Even inaction has a consequence.
I work in cybersecurity, finding ways to break out of “constrained systems” is literally my job.
I also already voted, I’m just not pretending that American “democracy” is anything other than a process for legitimizing an Imperial state.
The voters have no agency, the only people who do are those who constrained the available options to “bad” and “worse”. But you’re trying to hold those people blameless by insisting that voters are answerable to the party rather than the other way around. The Democrats can’t fail, they can only be failed by potential voters who are insufficiently terrified of their “opponents”.
The Democrats only need a Republican stick so that they don’t have to offer us more carrots, the right move is to stop being a donkey and farm our own carrots.
Let the parties die, the Republican party will collapse to infighting after Trump loses anyway.
Do you have a plan to effectively break out of the constrained system in the next 10 days? If not, it’s all academic
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I’ll vote Dem, but I am ashamed beyond measure of the Dem party. Despite the public doing all they can to stop Trump, the actual candidates running against Trump are sitting on their asses and refusing to take serious action. This “Blue Wave” is not approval FOR Harris-Walz, but rather DISAPPROVAL for Trump. Dems are ultimately more responsible for fascism in the U.S. than their voters.
All in all, the entire United States Government is at fault. This is just one reason why I want an independent Cascadia.
It’s sadly the same story in the UK the public are sick and tired of the Tory’s bullshit. Unfortunately the Labour Party has never been soo right wing. Normally they they wouldn’t have have stood a chance on such an authoritarian, uninspiring manifesto but here we are. The cynicism of the people in charge of the Labour Party stinks to high heaven. They fucked the party while the left were in charge then purged them when they retook control. I’ll be lucky to still be about by the time the left ever get control again.
Canada is setup to have a Conservative majority after the Liberals utterly ruined everything for 2 and a bit terms. The Liberals are a centre-right party that campaigns as a centre-left party and it has caused a huge rightward-drift.
We’re pretty screwed because somehow people think the solution to unaffordable housing and whole industries being captured by oligarchs is austerity.
The things that gets under my skin the most are: the contempt they have for much of the populace; their habitual dishonesty; holding power is more important than achieving any measurable good; their apparent philosophy seems to be gradually increasing inequality; their toxic attitude to anyone to their left.
Fuck right off with that “Dems are just as much at fault”.
It’s the system that sucks, and it’s the Republicans that exploited the system.
It’s a damned if you do, damned if you don’t problem. Dems can’t win by playing the game by the rules, but if they stoop to the Republicans level, then they are just as fascist.
You gotta see the conundrum, right? Dems take the high road and they lose, dems take the low road and they’re fascist, too.
The only option is to pull out as many stops as possible, while working within the rules to either get moderate conservatives (the ones that hate Trump, at least) to switch to Harris. Which means that the big-tent-party gets bigger by expanding to the right.
So they do stuff like observe that Trump’s whole schtick is “I’m not the incumbent”. That didn’t work well for him in 2020. Getting Biden to step down and throw the entire GOP campaign off kilter was, IMO, brilliant. Yeah, it sucks that there was no real primary…but there’s also the issue of optics when primarying an incumbent president.
And I don’t think the pageantry of a primary would’ve accomplished anything. It would’ve shattered the party even more with infighting while Trump and the GOP leaned back with their popcorn and pulling out sound bites to twist on Fox and OAN to rattle their own base even more. And in the end the Dems would’ve just chosen who they wanted to and half the parties voters will be just as, if not more, pissed, and end up boycotting the election as a result.
And then they get to really punch Trump where it hurts, by saying things like how he’s now the oldest person to ever run for president of the US. You just know that’s gotta burn.
Honestly, Harris/Walz is probably the best they could’ve offered up, not because they are great politicians (although they are), but because this is a battle of appearances and personality, and the two of them have it in spades.
Harris will hold any announcement of dropping weapons shipments to israel till the very last day to see if the polls tell her she will get away with supporting the genocide and still winning the election. The more doubts she has, the more she might flip. So might as well hold your vote till the last second and play out this game of chicken.
If Kamala looses: All of the blame gets put on third party voters for not “voting hard enough” (especially if she wins the popular vote and looses in the electoral college). Absolutely none of the blame gets put on her supporting genocide, her vague positions, the fact that her campaign page contains very little about her views or policies, her support of fracking, her general support of oil and gas, her support of genocide, and her support for imperialism. Of course that could all be incorrect but Kamala refuses to dispute those claims.
If Kamala wins: She will do basically nothing, compromise with the Republicans, allow states to ban abortion, allow states to restrict womens rights, allow states to ban trans healthcare, generally allow the far-right to do whatever they want, and continue to fund genocide. When all of this happens third party voters will be blamed for “not voting hard enough” and Kamala will take no responsibility whatever.
Regardless of outcome the next election: The Democrat candidate will be even more right wing because leftists didn’t “vote hard enough”, they will be even more bipartisan and even less progressive. All of the Liberals will demand everyone vote for this candidate yet the candidate will make no attempt to implement any popular policy. Americas rapid decline into fascism will continue and nobody in power will do anything to stop it.
Once again I ask the question what harm is reduced by “harm reduction”? If anything a more accurate term would be slowing down fascism. But what Liberals refuse to answer is what practical purpose is there to slowing down fascism? Congratulations you get maybe a few extra decades from fascism but then what? Clearly Liberals are buying their time but what exactly are they buying their time for? What is the grand strategy? We’ve already seen the Democratic Candidate clearly use fascist rhetoric, how long is it until these compromise candidates compromise the rights of minorities? How long until they compromise on Fascism? I would vote “harm reduction” if I knew that at the end of it all theres a plan to eventually fight back but I dont think there is one. I think the Liberal plan is to keep doing “harm reduction” indefinitely, however even if you’re a hardcore liberal you have to acknowledge thats a fundamentally unsustainable plan.
TLDR: The only people responsible for Democrats not getting elected are the Democrats themselves and their corporate sponsors who hold them back from instituting popular policy, I get its easy to pin the blame on some group but fundamentally thats little more then a logical fallacy.
“loses” not “looses”
It’s crazy how if I vote third party, or not at all I am both voting for Harris and for Trump, depending on who you ask.
My theory, and it is just a theory, is that Trump wins the electoral college vote, but Kamala wins the popular vote by a wide enough margin that by the next election, if there is one, they start to abolish the electoral college. Maybe then a third party candidate could actually make some changes.
I think the fact that Walz spoke out against the ec shows that even he thinks this is a likely outcome.
Unlikely, both parties love the electoral college because it destroys any chance of a third party victory.
One of Trump’s goals is to “crack down” (aka ban) protests. So let’s get Kamala elected first, and then you can bust out the molotovs or whatever the plan is, please.
Biden has literally cracked down on protests, why wouldn’t Kamala Harris do the same?
Which protests? I hadn’t heard about this
Have you not been paying attention to the Palestine protests?
Apparently not. I read about college campuses strong-arming protests, but not about federal action.
deleted by creator
Okay, that still doesnt explain how we fix this problem, which is what that poster is talking about.
So we sacrifice our vote this round cause Nazi cheetoh blah blah blah, what do we do next election when the next Nazi supreme is running? We do the same thing then?
I’d be more willing to listen to your position if there was some semblence of a long term plan. Also, you seem to trivialize how awful it is to vote for an administration currently committing genocide. A bunch of people are voting kamala and very upset about it.
deleted by creator
I envy that you think theres a material difference between how trump and kamala would handle Israel, and also that you weigh a potential genocide as more than an existing one. I hope you will be just as happy that you voted for Kamala in a few years once this all shakes out though.
deleted by creator
You didn’t answer how harm reduction works as a long term strategy which is being done right now. In addition you didn’t answer whats the point of buying extra time.
deleted by creator
I would be fine if the “harm reduction” politican didn’t actively go against other actions taken. If Liberals were willing to do anything in addition to harm reduction I would respect them even slightly. Fundamentally the problem is nothing else is being done, we have incompetent and lazy people on the “left” while the right is completely fascist. You and I may acknowledge that harm reduction alone cannot stand as a real political strategy but until Liberals understand that as well it fundementally stands as a false hope and leads people to complacency.
deleted by creator
Couldn’t have said it better! Well done!
What type of Nostradumbassery is this? You have no clue what Harris is or is not going to do. What YOU are doing however, is predicting her behavior in such a way that it conveniently falls within the boundaries of some ideological fantasy of yours that involves you as the hero, chanting
“i tOLd yOu so!”
to anyone dumb enough to listen.
None of what you said is even remotely accurate or based in any semblance of reality in which it could even be challenged properly. The only thing to do at this point is to simply dismiss it as nonsense. .
I said that myself, however if Kamala refuses to officially document any of her positions then I think its fair to go by her interviews and statements. Im her public appearances she has expressed support for Israel, publicly abandoned anti-fracking while supporting “energy independence”, and made it very clear that she would compromise all of her positions in the name of “bipartisanship”.
Okay…. Cool. Because Trump will be SO much better on these issues.
Man. I really wish people understood how this shit works.
Strawman argument, critiquing your favorite corporate sponsored puppet doesn’t mean I support the other guy.
You’re getting one or the other. Only, one hates women, abhors the LGBTQ+ and intends to revoke many of their rights, has threatened to use the military against American citizens, will bring back concentration camps, is a convicted rapist, and a 34 time convicted felon, will enact Project 2025, is easily bought out by Christian fundamentalists and Russia, and has sad that he will help Israel “finish the job.”
He is going to turn Palestine into a crater. So stop pretending this is about them when you know this. He will be worse. Provenly worse.
So let’s talk about being a puppet mmmmkay??
Because as we all know, Shill Stein’s stings were made in Russia and Cornell West’s masters won’t even take him out of his box.
You’ve got no options other than to keep the bad one out. And if you’re going to respond with “bUt tHeY aRe bOtH bAd!” I’m going to assume you can’t tell the difference between a speck of dirt in your glass full of water, and glass full of raw sewage, and just end this right here.
Unrelated to the message - that’s a bad use of the meme, doesn’t fit at all.
Not an American, but yikes does this have “Vote with us… Or else!” vibes.
That’s not to say I support Trump, but I personally don’t think this is the way to convince fence-sitters at all.
If I was on the fence this kind of menacing push would make me reaffirm myself into not voting Dems. For real.
What kind of shitty way of convince anyone is this?
It’s exactly the kind of thing that feels good to say, but doesn’t convince anyone at all. Which is why Republicans keep winning despite ideas that should be extremely unpopular. They tie themselves to emotions about masculinity and patriotism and paint the other side as a source of disgust and fear. While Democrats look at people who support or don’t seem eager to stop Trump and say angry things at them, which just makes them not want to help Demcorats.
The “I’m voting, are you?” argument featuring nutty alt-right Maga crazies is far better because it says “hey, you can help stop this nutjob.”
Can confirm, these awful false-equivalences have only further convinced me that liberals will never lift a finger to help anyone.
you are 100% correct, and I’m glad to see you speaking up here as well.
these kind of posts are disgusting pablum and should be discouraged.
Low afford manipulation. Any adult person within shred of constitution can see through it.
Entirely agree. The people responsible for trump getting votes are the people voting for Trump.
Tactical voting is bullshit of the highest order and the undeniable sign of a fucked up political and voting system, not some sort of political astuteness.
If your voting system can’t allow people to express their true choice, you should throw it away. Yes, that means the majority of voting systems around the world are bad and need to be changed. Getting people to recognise that this is even an issue in the first place is a huge battle.
Only one party has implemented ranked choice while the other has fought against it. That would be a great first start.
That’s not quite the case. Ranked choice voting is resisted by whichever party has a comfortable majority in any given state where it is on the ballot. That’s why it failed when it was on the ballot in Massachusetts during the previous presidential election, because it is a reliably blue state and ranked choice voting would only serve to disrupt that status quo.
I still voted in favor of it, but that’s how it went down.
The really bad part is when you see how they react when people point out Kamala moving to the left would guarantee trump loses…
Moderates have been doing this since Bill Clinton 30+ years ago.
They always claim nothing else matters but beating Republicans, and use any excuse to move the party right. When voters complain the politician doesn’t match the party, we get the above.
They’d rather trump win then progressives, so they point a gun at everyone’s head and say it’s our fault if they have to pull the trigger.
Hell, in 08 with Obama they did pull the trigger. PUMA movement had them voting R instead of Obama. It’s just despite controlling the party, they are a statistically insignificant amount of voters.
A few months ago all these people called us trump supporters for making the (still true) statement that Kamala has a better chance than Biden, and they were all saying Kamala would be a terrible candidate and only Biden can win.
They’ll say anything in the moment with no regards to what just came out of their mouths.
And it’s crazy how normal Americans think this two party system is. It’s like no matter how bad you think your guy is, you have to vote for them because the other side is worse. They always talk about the Labour Party and the Tories as if they think they’re carbon copies of the Democrats and the Republicans and project all their issues into them. They don’t seem to realise there’s like five or six other parties that get a considerable number of votes and have representation in Parliament.
Americans have no concept of a coalition.
It is normal in FPTP voting systems. If you are going to vote in a national election in a FPTP system. Especially one with our electoral college system. But aren’t looking to explicitly throw your vote away. And you aren’t okay with open fascists winning. When things are this close. Yeah there really is no conscionable choice. Unless you happen to live in a state so safe your vote truly could never matter. Like california. Which even that would be unwise. And is especially at a place for anyone from there to tell people elsewhere how to vote. Since they don’t have the same privilege.
This is dishonest. You put all the onus of losing to trump on progressives and act powerless, when Kamala changing just one policy would guanatee progressive support in large numbers. We’re not buying it. She’s the one advocating a policy that has no place in a democratic party platform, and would be extreme and risky even for a far right republican platform.
How else would you propose that the Overton Window shift to the left?
But it’s literally how it works in the USA with voting. It shouldn’t, but it DOES.
I dont see that it is “working”.
The “or else” is you will be remembered as the Trump supporter that you are. That’s not a threat.
You’re not s Trump supporter if you don’t support Trump
This is the trolley problem. There are people on the track who will die if you don’t pull the lever. You stand and watch them die and declare, “I didn’t put the train on the track. It’s not my fault.”
You forgot some parts. The bystander being asked to pull the lever will enable a genocide by pulling it, and those rich people stuck on the tracks could pull a policy lever and save themselves but they refused to because someone offered them a bribe not to.
The rich people stuck on the track just want to play the vicitm when they also set up the whole scenario in the fist place by doing crazy stuff. So they crybully about it, and pretend to be victims of the scenario that they themselves created. I’d suggest they save themselves and stop doing stupid stuff. If we save them, how will they learn?
The bystander being asked to pull the lever will enable a genocide by pulling it
That statement shows you are a Trump supporter just like the meme claimed. Trump has committed to the extermination of Palestinians and even said he would deny any refugees.
The Trolley problem has 1 person on one track and 5 on the other. There’s a huge difference between Trump and Harris’s statements on Palestine.
Harris can pull her own lever anytime she wants, and that lever is to stop the weapons shipments. She then earns enough progressive votes to win, saving everyone, instead of looking for all the Dem voters to save her while she supports a far right war thats costing her a lot of votes.
How you get that I am a trump supporter from what I said is hard to imagine. But I think you’re just making it up to have something … anything, to attack with.
You need to work on your metaphors, and your basic reasoning, and your rhetoric. If you are going to call people names at least make it interesting and consistent with reality. Otherwise you are just boring.
Harris can pull her own lever anytime she wants
Harris isn’t President!
Trump has called for the extermination of all of Palestine.
Nope, you cannot blame someone for something they didn’t do
I live in California, if I don’t vote it doesn’t support Trump at all, the electoral votes go onto the Democrats if I vote for them, vote for Trump, or write in SpongeBob, it doesn’t fucking matter
If you live in a swing state then your point stands better, but I’m so fucking sick of this authoritarian “idgaf where you are if you didn’t vote exactly how I want you to then I’ll be a real pissy bitch about it” shit because I don’t like to vote in line with authoritarians
There was no retribution in the meme. Only that the person would be remembered for their lack of action.
What would you think of me if I saw your house catch fire and instead of calling the fire department, I watched your pets burn to death?
There was no retribution in the meme
Cute that you want to pretend that “well remember this false thing about you” isn’t an implicit threat
What would you think of me if I saw your house catch fire and instead of calling the fire department, I watched your pets burn to death?
Not a very good hypothetical as you can actually do something there
Its cute how hard youll grasp for a reason to justify the authoritarianism though. Gross, but cute
It’s not false. Through inaction they allowed something bad to happen. You want to have it both ways.
Not a very good hypothetical as you can actually do something there
As if you can’t vote?
Even if you are in solid Blue State, an overwhelming majority against Trump will send a message to the next fascist attempt.
I’m not speaking from a place of facts, but I think the sentiment is if you don’t purposefully vote for someone within the two-party system that isn’t Trump, your vote will mathematically be a negative towards votes against Trump.
Not voting/third-party vote = one less vote against Trump/more possible votes for Trump
I mean, yeah? Have you looked around? The or else is getting pretty bad.
Also I want to keep adding it’s not just Trump, he’s just a pawn. This is Republicans, not Trump. If row did anything hopefully it opened up some eyes to realize they have been on message for a long damn time. Dems should take note.
Mmm I’m sorry to tell you that you are wrong
Yes, I understand the sentiment. But the tone is off. Sounding like fascists or Marxist Leninist should be the last thing anyone should be aiming for.
deleted by creator
No, the blame lies squarely on the DNC for deliberately ignoring the loud and clear message from third party voters that genocide is a red line in the sand. The blame further lies with the liberals supporting a decaying Empire and never lifting a finger to help anyone, just showing up at the ballot box every 4 years while the US commits manmade horrors beyond comprehension.
Join an org, like the Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL) or Freedom Road Socialist Organization (FRSO), this mess can’t be undone by supporting the Dems harder.
Unfortunately, it’s not a “red line in the sand,” no matter how much you keep repeating it. While a majority of people in the US disapprove of Israel’s actions, a tiny fraction of voters (less than 2%) consider it their primary voting issue, an even smaller fraction of that number would consider withholding their vote or voting third party over it.
While you may not like it, it’s not the major concern for American voters. If you’d like to withhold your vote or vote third party about it, be my guest. The only likely scenario that would result from that would helping Trump get elected. If you’re honestly concerned about Palestinians, you’d be wise enough to not enable an even worse situation for them. There’s a reason Israel’s leadership wants Trump to win and encourages the left to revolt about Palestine.
You’re getting played by Israel, who is using your short-sighted feels to enable them to enact long-term reals, which in their case might very well be the full extermination and displacement of all of Palestine. To truly bring that into being, they, at they very least, need Trump to win. Fundamentally you are siding with Israel over Palestinians, and the immediate sense of moral superiority you feel about it is precisely how you’re being manipulated.
Read your history. Using the left’s lack of political pragmatism to aid in hard-right political takeover isn’t new. Your Bush-ist “you’re either with us or against us” simplification of the world and political calculus makes you an easy mark. You are, quite literally, a tool of Israel at this point.
And the best part, from Israel’s point of view, is you get to feel good about it. Win-win (for Israel). You’re trying to march Palestine right into the grave while telling them you’re helping them the whole way.
It’s a red line in the sand if voters make it so.
Secondly, the idea that Israel is depending on the Repblicans winning is hilarious. Biden has given them everything they want, including approving the Lebanon invasion. The genocide is bipartisan.
I think you’re going to by sadly surprised about how bad things can get. The limits of your long-term imagination and the narrowed view upon which you prevail are a little surprising. But, then again, you’re literally helping the Israeli state, so maybe I shouldn’t be surprised.
WoahWoah, If you truly beleive in minimizing the murder of the Palestinians, why isnt pressuring Harris to change her policy position something you’ll support? Why get on here and trashtalk progressives into letting Harris have her cake and eat it too?
You’re signing off on everything the US Empire and Israel wants, what’s surprising is that you can’t see that.
Whatever helps you sleep better at night while you help Israel commit genocide.
Whatever helps you sleep better at night while you help Israel commit genocide.
You’ve reached the “I know you are but what am I” level of childishness. That speaks volumes.
Have you ever wondered what thoughts must go through a person’s mind after making just the worst decision in their lives? Like a father who fell asleep at the wheel because he didn’t want to stop at a motel to save a few bucks, and now he’s in the ICU watching his wife and child slowly dying in front of him?
That’s gonna be you if Trump gets elected. Good luck with that.
Your idea of the “worst decision of their lives” is forced on Palestinians daily because of the party you support.
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Theres a big difference between aiding a genocide vs not showing up to stop one. Are you pretending we are merely being neutral in this Israeli genocide? Thats absurd at best and dishonest at worst.
Progressives are asking for the weapons shipments to stop, and Harris gets the votes to win.
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Yeah dude, it would totally make sense to listen to all 3% of those third party voters over the 97% of people who aren’t stupid enough to throw their vote away in such a dumb fashion. That’s how you win elections!
about 1/3 of americans of voting age do not vote. its not just that 3% who are unmoved by the two options served up by the decaying US political system
If the Democrats don’t want votes, then it’s on them when they lose, not voters.
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Someday I hope you’ll get over your hatred of Marxism and Marxists.
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You were never a Marxist if you think along those lines, lmao. Explain Dialectical and Historical Matetialism, the basics of Marxism.
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Abstaining or voting third party is an exercise of choice. If you want your candidate to win, vote for them, as we all should do.
Vote for the candidate you support. If you don’t support any, you can choose not to vote.
Abstaining is the pinical of lazyness, it is my opinion that those who do not participate give up their right to complain about politics until the next election. If you like none of the candidates write in Batman, spoil your ballot by drawing dicks on it, I dont care, you showed up and that alone is the important part.
And before you what-about-ism areas where voter supression is happening or heavily gerrymandered districts? Yes, this is a problem that must be fixed, but not participating also dosent help that either.
Decisions are made by those who show up. That’s what it boils down to. I always see it like this: even if I don’t get the result I want, I’ll at least have the satisfaction that my vote cancelled out someone else’s who’s voting against my interests.
So make sure you show up, or someone else who DOES gets to decide for you.
What you are saying is voting to hurt your enemies, what the OP is saying is voting to help yourself. Its a difference of perspective.
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Vote for the candidate you support. If you don’t support any, you can choose not to vote.
Yes, those are all choices. Just know that everyone else understands the reality of what your vote (abstention) actually means in practice. So just know that you’re being judged.
Your “judgement” is absolutely meaningless today and it will stay meaningless in the future. Who do you think you are?
“If we lose we will blame you until the end of time.”
This is not about “exercising choice”. This is about affecting the outcome.
The old “if you’re not with us then you’re against us” position. How about the dems adopt policies that inspire people to vote for them.
Not jailing women for miscarriages is not enough?
It is better to be feared in politics than to make people admire or love you. When people are worried about “What if the other guy gets in?” instead of “When the dude I want gets in, what what will they do for us all?” it allows the slow ratchet towards autocratic shitheads like Trump.
The difference between the Dems and republicans is one pretends to represent everyone equally, the other does not. Both need to make their capitalist masters happy.
That being said. Dems are doing harm less quickly than the republicans are, so vote for them.
So…. What has any 3rd party candidate done to earn your vote?
What has any 3rd party candidate done to even prove that have the ability to do jack shit if they were to accidentally get elected to begin with.
Oh, and lastly, where the fuck do the 3rd party candidates go in-between elections when for three solid years- they’re nowhere to be found?
See? If all you do is complain, yet have no viable solution, then all you’re doing is complaining. And no one is obligated to take you seriously.
So…. What has any 3rd party candidate done to earn your vote?
Claudia De La Crúz of PSL has a program I agree with and believe is necessary.
What has any 3rd party candidate done to even prove that have the ability to do jack shit if they were to accidentally get elected to begin with.
PSL organizes year round, every year. They develop internal party infrastructure, protest, run a news site, educate others on Marxist theory, assist with strikes, and are even supporting disaster relief efforts recently due to the hurricanes.
Oh, and lastly, where the fuck do the 3rd party candidates go in-between elections when for three solid years- they’re nowhere to be found?
PSL does what I said year round, every year.
See? If all you do is complain, yet have no viable solution, then all you’re doing is complaining. And no one is obligated to take you seriously.
PSL has a viable solution, you can read their full party program here.
They’ve also been very involved in antiwar protests since Iraq at least with answer coalition too!
Yep! Good example!
A Trump victory does not advance these goals.
Neither does a Harris victory.
Yes. Let’s just keep shifting right, and then eventually we’ll end up left; it’s like Pacman!
Yes, that is the liberal plan, unclear why they think it would work.
Dumbest hot takes on the Internet be like:
I love how in the US getting Hitler elected would just be a matter of having a total of one worse person run for president. Then the Dems would be selling him as the saviour of the working class and minorities.
“What? Third party? You might as well be voting for Hitl… Wait”
voting third party is bad? first past the post problem
And how will voting 3rd party help?
In the USA? It won’t, your voting system is fundamentally broken.
approval voting!
This is why the American system is weird af.
Smug liberals will be condescending regardless of who wins any election.
